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Thursday, July 7th 2011, 9:45am

in-depth feedback desired?

I was wondering whether there is interest in some more in-depth feedback and also critique of the models that have been shown up till now. I'm not a pro at modelling by any means but I do model now and then. More importantly, I've worked together with a lot of modellers for different mods where we've developed designs fitting to existing ones, much similar to what continuum is trying to achieve.

Regarding the feedback / critique - my main concern is to go a little deeper than "wow that looks good". Those are nice and create motivation but won't contribute much to improving the models. And although I really like most of the models, that doesn't mean there is no room for improvement and tweaks. :)

As an example of what I mean:

In general the design is really nice and on the first look, many of the models look very detailed. However, I've noticed that the distribution of detail could be improved in most models. What I mean is that there are areas which have a lot of detail and just besides them are areas, which have almost none. A good example is this model.
Another thing regarding the detailing specifically is that I've noted that in many cases, the details are simple extrusions / intrusions. (Also pretty well visible in that render.) From what I can tell, the way those details were generated is by using the outline tool (I think that's what it was called, been some time since I last used SketchUp) and then the pull/push tool. One of the issues with that is that the basic outline of the original model stays the same. That's one thing I'd recommend changing. Try breaking up the main shape of the objects so that they don't look like simple boxes with greeble on them (I'm exagerrating but you know what I mean. :) ).

I've got more in terms of feedback but I think that illustrates the point I try to make well enough for now. ^^

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Thursday, July 7th 2011, 10:12am

Regular models in Freelancer have less extrusions and are more flat.
Models in Continuum are more embosed and have more extrusions to be less flat.
Sticks & Stones.

But if you wish to lend a lend, welcome on the bandwagon.

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Thursday, July 7th 2011, 10:28am

Regular models in Freelancer have less extrusions and are more flat.
Models in Continuum are more embosed and have more extrusions to be less flat.
Sticks & Stones.

But if you wish to lend a lend, welcome on the bandwagon.
Yes, don't get me wrong, extrusions are needed, in fact there are not many other ways to do detailing. What I'm referring to is how those extrusions are distributed and shaped. :)

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Thursday, July 7th 2011, 10:34am

Well, we're basically using this kind of style in order to keep a low poly count in view of possible players that have an out-dated system on their hands. Very detailed models would ruin the gameplay for them, with local stuttering in an area or general lag.

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Thursday, July 7th 2011, 12:08pm

As Folgore specified above, we need to combine the beauty with performance. I was thinking that overloading the model with many mesh forms could increase the polycount and have problems with performance for some players, but also the texturing will be plain difficult and could take an enormous amount of time for only 1 single model. I am aware that some models need to be revised (and yes I am speaking of the Bretonian models) but that will be discussed later. Textured the models will look more detailed.
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Thursday, July 7th 2011, 12:14pm

Hm, it seems I have not been specific enough with my posts, apologies for that!

What I suggest is not the reduction or increase of triangles spent on details. My main concern is how they are spread over the models. I fully understand that there are engine and performance reasons for triangle limits.

I'm currently at work (as you can tell, doing my job diligently! :D ) so I can't really illustrate my point. I'll try to throw together some sketch up models later today to better convey what I mean.

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Thursday, July 7th 2011, 12:16pm

Well, our team is always open if you wish to join us. Having different modelling styles would help the development a lot.

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Thursday, July 7th 2011, 12:34pm

As much as I'd like to get back into modelling, I sadly don't have enough time for commitments like that right now. :(

I hardly ever get around to do stuff for the Mod Team I'm part of already. (Not sure if the X series is that know here, I work on the XTended Mod.)

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Thursday, July 7th 2011, 3:31pm

Over greebling a mesh is one of the most common failings, blame the holywood people for that.

They came to the conclusion that for a 'mega space destroyer (tm)' to look real, it had to have lots and lots of fussy detail, salvaged from every platic airplane kit the fx workshop could lay its hands on...

Problem is this, yes large objects have lots of detail, but... most of it is the kind you just can't model by hand, all those rivet heads on the WWII battleship for example.

In the real world, once you mentally convert the unmodelable detail into texture and bump maps, what you end up with is large flat areas, with the modeled detail concentrated in small areas. This is how it should be. Tall skyscrapers, large areas of 'flat' glass and concrete, with smaller areas of 'fussy' detail, the helipad on the roof and all the stairwells, n doors to access it, or the ground floor entrance lobbies etc.. The 400 floors between the roof and the ground, flat and boring as hell.

Just adding more greebles to everything, bad idea. Makes them look fake.

As for 'extrusions' being the only way to detail a mesh, try using a 3d application rather than a web-toy like sketchup, you'll find there are lots of alternatives...
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Thursday, July 7th 2011, 3:31pm

Freelancer models are generally pretty flat, the already existing models for continuum are a major improvement

i can imagine that things can be done in a different way but when I look at other existing space games the stations are mostly simple (maybe i misunderstand what you mean... very likely i do as you probably have something in mind that is best being displayed visually)
we dont have to worry much about the poly count or anything like this... that should not be the problem
however it still should look similar to the original FL somehow
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Thursday, July 7th 2011, 9:24pm

Indeed there are more powerful tools for 3D editing that could create extraordinary details and shapes but I think that Ketchup-SketchUp :D is more then good for FL style models.
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Thursday, July 7th 2011, 10:28pm

Indeed there are more powerful tools for 3D editing that could create extraordinary details and shapes but I think that Ketchup-SketchUp :D is more then good for FL style models.
Agreed. Also, SketchUp's limitation is in the end still the user, not really the program. There are many great models to be found on the internets which have been modeled in SU. : )

Also, I tossed together a quick demonstration of what I mean here. I hope it helps. : )

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "enenra" (Jul 7th 2011, 10:28pm)


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Thursday, July 7th 2011, 11:06pm

One of the first things any 3d modeler should learn, in my opinion, isn't how to use all the bells and whistles of their modeling app, or the mysteries of uv mapping etc...

It's far more basic than that, and comes in two parts...

1 Form follows Function.

Sure, architects design mad looking buildings, but... What shape are most houses, and why... Why are doors all around the world, slightly higher and slightly wider than a person... Why are elevator buttons always at the same height off the floor, etc.

2. Model what you know...

Any one can make to wheels, and a styled body shell to connect them and say "look a 3d motorbike", but if you know nothing about bikes, then odds are the first biker who sees it will say 'unusable deathtrap'. A friend of mine, a professional architect, who had made a highly popular series of over 100 futuristic architectural city blocks, tried his hand at making a gun prop,m despite knowing nothing about guns at all. Result was a gun where the ejector port was shorter and narrower than the cartidges... No way to eject the spent brass after firing, hace to pop the clip, and poke the spent shell out of the breech with a stick and shake the gun so it fell out of the magazine well...

So, think about the problems with building large structures in zero g and hard vacume, when every planetary rotation takes your worksite into the shadow, where the temperature drops to -273 degrees centigrade, then back into the harsh glare of sunlight, with no atmosphere to shield and tone down the radiation, where the glare can fry your retinas.

Your hull will be prefabricated panels, built in pressurised workshops, attached to prefabricated structural members also built in pressurised workshops, simple girder frames, with flat panels joined edge to edge, so, your uv's are going to be tiled, repetition of the texture is almost mandatory, either boxes because its a simple shape to build, or spheres because its the smallest and thus cheapest surface to enclose a given volume, or a compromise, the cylinder, because people dont like rooms where the floor is a mad shape and awkward to fit carpets...

Your sample models tell a lot, sketchup works well on face extrusion so thats what you use, but thats not how buildings are made, so your models dont look like buildings, simple as that.

Thing I'm most famous for modeling, if famous is the right word, is weapons props, especially swords. Why? Because before I started making swords, I went and watch a swordsmith...

Once had somebody who downloaded one of my free meshes post a reply "who models a full tang on a 3d blade prop'. I do, because thats how they are made, forgetting that there should be a tang means you forget how the proportions of the weapon should match up, it's like those moronic 'buster' swords you see in japanese manga based stuff, blade 6 feet long, 8 inches wide, attached to a grip thats thinner than a broom handle, snap right off when you lift it, assuming you can life a sword that must weigh at least 100lbs.

Making a gun mesh, first thing you make is a round of the ammo, as that will determine the whole size and shape and layout of the weapon, cartridge too long to pass through the grip, no through grip magazine, either a forward shift, for a mauser m96 look, or a backward shift to a bullpup design, like a calico 950. The length of the brass determines the length of the recoil stroke, size of the bolt, and the reciever, and the ejector port, how much propellant in the brass determines minimum barrel length to allow the propellant to burn before the slug reaches the muzzle, and so on.

With sci fi stuff, you have to think about who will use it, and what they will use it for. Take a look at the Destroyer mesh pictures I posted here in the gallery... Now you might not like the design but..., the reason it doesnt have a load of greebles on the hull is that such things would weaken the structure of the ships armour. I didn't model an interior, but if you ask me, I can tell you exactly how many decks it has, and what they are used for, and why C-Deck has no windows...

Form follows function...

Yeah, now and then an architect will find somebody willing to pay for a mad design with wierd sticky out bits in mad places, but... 99.9% of the worlds skyscrapers are rectilinear glass, steel and concrete boxes, because they are easier to design, cheaper to build, and more convenient to live and work in. Your carpet fitter doesn't need a degree in differeltial calcllus because your room's floor plans are based on hyperbolic curves...
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Thursday, July 7th 2011, 11:26pm

@AestheticDemon

I think you misunderstand what I try to convey here. Firstly, those are not supposed to be buildings. I just took a cube-like shape as a base to put the greeble onto. Those have no function and are not supposed to have any function besides showing how greebling can be improved.

Secondly I think there's a discrepancy in the way we go at these things. I for one don't care much about realism. Sure, the model should look somewhat human made but this is a game, my primary concern is that the models look good. Now for you that might mean that they have to be realistic. That's another, valid, point of seeing it but considering we're talking about a game with no physics and quite a lot of other unrealistic stuff I don't think it's the way to go here. And from what I've seen so far in the models, it's not the way Dave.Synk is going with his models either.

Yes well, with that said I propose we get back to the original topic. If you want to continue this discussion, please feel free to PM me. : )

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Friday, July 8th 2011, 1:07am

Interesting stuff, we've just recently managed to get our greasy hands on another modeller, with a professional background this time, only that he is lacking concepts for his future work. So I was wondering if someone with some artistical knowledge would want to become the Concept Artist for Continuum.

I'm cleaning my hands with this, since I'm not so good at 3D modelling or I just do it for fun.

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Friday, July 8th 2011, 8:29am

Interesting suggestions enenra and really that style is not too hard to get, and it's even more eye catchy.
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Friday, July 8th 2011, 9:07am

yeah, i have to agree the examples are convincing

the point about the logical structure of stations that Aesthetic brought up too
however, i dont believe that both views exclude each other
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Friday, July 8th 2011, 10:19am

@Dave.Synk

Not sure what you are referring to with "style". AestheticDemons take on realism or the way I did the detailing on the models? :s

I'll try to get some more done so I can communicate other suggestions. Won't be around much from tomorrow on for two weeks though.

Something I'd suggest you try doing for now is to work out the faction styles, or rather first the key points of their styles. That will help generating models with a consisten "feel" about them, models that look like they belong to the same faction.
First you should start with looking at the existing Freelancer vanilla models. What are repeated shapes / themes for the models of a faction? For example, Rheinland tends to have very blocky shapes, nearly rectangular boxes but often with 45° angles to round them off somewhat. Next to no "flowing shapes". IIRC (without having access to pictures atm) a lot of their ships also have that big "gear" (the round thing in the back of the fighters) on them, so that might be another key point. See if you can find those for all the different houses (for example also the "solar wings" of the Kusari ships).

I recommend doing that for the ships and then using the planetary scenes of the houses for inspiration to set down similar key points for the stations. They can overlap of course.
After you've done that, try incorporating those key points in your designs. Of course not always in the same way and also a little different from the way they are used in the vanilla Freelancer models. Maybe you can also come up with some new key points yourself. : )

You've of course already done that to a certain point in your existing models but it helps writing those things down, maybe even illustrate them with some screenshots or renders.

EDIT: Forgot to answer this post.

Quoted from ""Folgore_RM""

Interesting stuff, we've just recently managed to get our greasy hands on another modeller, with a professional background this time, only that he is lacking concepts for his future work. So I was wondering if someone with some artistical knowledge would want to become the Concept Artist for Continuum.

I'm cleaning my hands with this, since I'm not so good at 3D modelling or I just do it for fun.

It'll be hard to find someone with a professional background for concept art. Even rarer than people with professional background in modelling. : (
Sure, many people can do concept art - I've done so myself in the past - but in the end those are mostly not better than what the modeller can come up with himself. I suggest you give him various screens and concept art of Freelancer for inspiration in order to help him but I don't think much more can be done. : /
Another thing to make sure is that the modellers can easily get in touch with each other as to avoid to end up with several completely different styles of models, often not fitting together. ^^

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Friday, July 8th 2011, 1:34pm

@enenra

Referring to the details. I am aware that some models could be revised but most of the houses have their unique style. I don't think that all of the factions will have their own custom models , but that is still in discussion. From the recent models i've created especially for the Coalition I used the style you showed before.
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Friday, July 8th 2011, 3:51pm

Yeah, I've seen that you've done that already. But I think that's one particular area where you could concentrate more on. While I can see several of these key design features,they're not yet that prominent. : )

Regarding the factions: I strongly recommend you guys go at this one after the other. First do the main original houses, then possible additions. You'll have enough to model with that already, if the initial goal is too large, the motivation suffers quickly. No one is stopping you from adding more for each faction after the main houses have been finished. : )

If you are referring to the coalition models in your user gallery then yeah, they have some nice detail but I think the boxy-detail-style is still prevalent there, no offense. ;)

Also, I've done another quick picture with some recommendations regarding modelling technique:

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