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Tachyon

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1

Saturday, August 10th 2002, 10:18pm

I don´t really understand your question. I mean, joystick support is joystick support... Anyway, the focus has been and will be on the mouse system. <img src=´http://tachyon15.homestead.com/files/tlrsig.gif ´>
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Natrunner

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2

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 1:55am

Maybe. BUT using a mouse directed style of play almost kills the idea of a true space shooter. In my opinion joystick is the only way to go. <img src=smilies/icon_smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> Edited by - natrunner on 11-08-2002 00:56:17
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Fear Factor

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3

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 2:09am

Another fundamentalist. Man, if games were religion, you´d be out there strapping bombs to your chest demanding the end of the use of mouse in space sims. Not realistic, you say? Freelancer is set at least 900 years in the future (800 years after Starlancer, right?), and joysticks would be long obsolete. 900 years into the future pilots should be using cerebro-kinetic waves to steer their crafts with cables plugged into their brains. FL is supposed to free you, and I think joystick is an afterthought. It is meant primarily to be played with a mouse. Maybe it will be fun, maybe not. But you have not played it yet, so trust me: any prejudice, pessimism, or on the other side, hype, will kill the fun for you. Just wait until you have it in your hands, compare, and then judge. If you don´t like the joystick support, then leave it.
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4

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 2:42am

Fear, I can´t wait to find you in my crosshairs, you with yer mousey and me with my joystick. We´re selling tickets to this show! <img src=smilies/icon_smile_wink.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> Rob &quot;Stinger&quot; Lordier Moderator/Comp Tech <A href=´http://www.lancersreactor.org/t/´ Target=_Blank> Lancers Reactor </a> Creator <A href=´http://solutions.h1.ru/faq/privater.shtml´ Target=_Blank> Privateer FAQ </a>Competition doesn´t create character, it <b> REVEALS </b> it! Edited by - Stinger on 11-08-2002 01:43:17

Natrunner

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5

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 4:27am

Hey Stinger, I got your six. At least I can say I shot him down by my own hand and not a mouse set to auto-turret. &quot; Taste righteous fire!!&quot; Anyone remember that quote? <img src=smilies/icon_smile_wink.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle>
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6

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 4:33am

Or... &quot;Die by the very weapons you adore!&quot;

Tachyon

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7

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 5:01am

LOL Fear! Nice way of putting it. I really don´t see why joystick is better than any other form of control. I mean, sure it is easier, but it gets really repetitive. I remember when playing Starlancer, just find an enemy, and you turn until he´s dead. Quite easy. I really hope Freelancer avoids this... Going joystick only definitely won´t.
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Fear Factor

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8

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 5:25am

I play space sims with various methods of control: I finished SL with keyboard. The hotkeys were just too many to compress into my joystick. I finished MechWarrior 3 and 4 with mouse-keyboard, then after I got a joystick, I went back and installed all 3 again and finished them again. Then a friend lent me his gamepad, and the cycle begins anew. All 3 had great replayability values! But I liked keyboard better. Being a creature of habit, I guess I just got used to it. Would´ve been different if I got the joystick or gamepad earlier. But I´m going to finish Freelancer with mouse+keyboard first. After that, maybe I´ll consider joystick. Like I said, I believe that the joystick support is half-assed into the feature, and will not be as good as mouse+keyboard. About the challenge gentlemen...I must politely decline. As some of you know, I´m depended on the school´s internet access to stay online <img src=smilies/icon_smile_sad.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> , and I need administrator´s authority to install games. I´ll just play it at home in single player mode. Edited by - Fear Factor on 11-08-2002 04:32:11
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Fear Factor

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9

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 6:12am

One more thing: in traditional space sims where we usually employ joysticks, your blasters are always co-axial with your ship (the crosshair will always aim at the centre of the HUD, and you aim at bogeys by facing them and placing them in the crosshair). In FL, the crosshair is free - moving around in the HUD. I don´t see how the joystick will cope with this. How can you control the crosshair and the ship´s movement with only one joystick? Possibility 1: You´ll still be flying with neuronet - you´re just aiming the crosshair with the joystick instead of with the mouse. Possibility 2: You can turn off NN and by doing so, you also make the crosshair co-axial and fly yourself.
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Zog

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10

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 7:40am

I completely agree with Fear Factor. If anyone of you came after me with a joystick and i was using a mouse id beat you for sure. The simple fact is its a more accurate way of aiming. Movements with a mouse are far easier and exact than a joystick. As Fear said, 900 or whatever it is years in the future, joysticks would be far outdated. Thats why DA gave the name neuronet. Anyways im going to be using the mouse on my system, anyone with a joystick will be at a serious combat disadvantage in multiplayer.
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Stinger

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11

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 4:01pm

I just love it when people make broad stroke statements like this... Zog says... <font size=1 face="trebuchet ms"><BLOCKQUOTE><hr size=1 noshade> anyone with a joystick will be at a serious combat disadvantage in multiplayer. <hr size=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face=´trebuchet ms, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica´ size=2> Um, last lime I checked a mouse sits on a flat surface just the same as a joystick, only a joystick with a twist option give the third axis movement. Exactly how do you get that from a mouse on a flat surface? Joysticks have more control buttons too, unless to have a commander mouse you´re limited to about 5 customizations. My &quot;old&quot; joystick has 7 plus a throttle control, 11 if you count the hat. I can program each of them to do very specific things leaving my other hand FREE to do more with the hotkeys if necessary. BTW, if you don´t know the three axis´s of movement you have no reason to comment on this subject. Learn to fly for real then come back and lets chat. Rob &quot;Stinger&quot; Lordier Moderator/Comp Tech <A href=´http://www.lancersreactor.org/t/´ Target=_Blank> Lancers Reactor </a> Creator <A href=´http://solutions.h1.ru/faq/privater.shtml´ Target=_Blank> Privateer FAQ </a>Competition doesn´t create character, it <b> REVEALS </b> it! <img src=´http://home.insight.rr.com/pierrelogic/images/Sting.bmp ´>

milod

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12

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 5:36pm

Fear: You missed one - Possibility 3: You fly the ship with the joystick, and the computer auto-aims the gun turrets. --milo <A href=´http://www.starshatter.com´ Target=_Blank>www.starshatter.com</a>
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Tachyon

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13

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 6:23pm

Stinger, simmah down man. He really has a point. Joystick users can´t possible match the accuracy that neuronet users will have. Sure, you have a third axis (what the hell?) but that won´t do any good when joystick users die in fifteen seconds because they can´t maneuver fast enough. Make one mistake and you´re in bad trouble. Mouse + keyboard users will easily be able to use 20+ keys. Left hand in a-s-d area. Joystick users will be in even more trouble if they can´t use certain maneuvers that the neuronet can. Milod, that would never be a possibility. People want a space flight sim, not MS Flight Simulator 2003.
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Fear Factor

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14

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 6:38pm

Thx, milod.
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Natrunner

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15

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 7:01pm

Tachyon, you´ve got a point about reaction time. That answers my original question. The developers are more or less forcing me to use a mouse. Boorrringg. As I said before, Diablo 2 in space. Most loyal flying sim fans whether it be in space or in a jet fighter would laugh at the idea of point and click combat. Hell, they wouldn´t even play the sim. But, I´m pretty sure that the mouse idea is an attempt to open the game to the masses. If you consider yourself one of the masses, the idea of mouse combat is fantastic. <img src=smilies/icon_smile_wink.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle>
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Stinger

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16

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 7:58pm

Tach, everything a keyboard only user has control over, so will the joystick pilot and then some. You´ll be able to program upward of 7 to 13 diferent hotkey strokes on the joystick and free up all the other hotkeys for your other hand if need be. There´s not going to be any reduction in reaction time, if anything it will be better control because taking the hotkey commands to the joystick put it all in one hand. I flew SL with both the joystick and the keyboard. If DA has really simplified the controls like they say they have I´ll be easily able to fly with all controls programmed into the joystick. Decent was the first game to incorporate the third axis in flying. I got nausious(sp?) flying that game because it was so real. You mousey dudes go ahead and put your blinders on, us joystick jockeys don´t care one way or the other. But to say you´re going to be more maneuverable and quicker that a pilot using a joystick simply doesn´t hold water. The truth will been seen, prognostications are only best guesses. Not once have I said flying a joystick would be better than flying with a mouse...all I´ve been defending is the fact the joystick will <b> NOT </b> be a disadvantage to any pilot.

Tachyon

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17

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 8:09pm

Um, yes you have... <font size=1 face="trebuchet ms"><BLOCKQUOTE><hr size=1 noshade>Um, last lime I checked a mouse sits on a flat surface just the same as a joystick, only a joystick with a twist option give the third axis movement. Exactly how do you get that from a mouse on a flat surface? <hr size=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face=´trebuchet ms, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica´ size=2> Sounds like joystick superiority speech to me. I never said joystick users would have delayed reaction times. I said that they will have a very hard time maneuvering to attack mouse users, simply because we can aim and target easier. You have to move your whole ship, which rules out making any kind of useful motion while aiming. We can do all sorts of stuff and still take out your weapons before we go for your engines. Anyway, Stinger I honestly expect better... Don´t blind yourself to automatically thinking one way will be better... Try both, see for yourself. If you´re prejudiced now, you always will be. <img src=smilies/icon_smile_sad.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> Edited by - Tachyon on 11-08-2002 19:11:21
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Zog

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18

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 8:28pm

Reaction time will be slower. A good example is a first person shooter. I have medal of honour for my computer and for my playstation 2. One time i looked at my stats on my computer and then compared them to the stats on my ps2. phenomenol difference. I shot something like 28% accuracy on my ps2 and almost 50% on my computer. Plus i can tell just by playing its easier. Using the analog joystick on my ps2 is far more crude and less exact than using my mouse on the computer. Besides,for something like our space shuttle a joystick works well. But those joysticks are super sensitive for docking purposes, they are not ment to have the vessel perform high performance manuvers. A real fighter in space would probably use a more efficiant form of control then a joystick.Ever see the way they do it in Lost in Space , the new one. Thats a very good way of controling a fighter. And sting, i do know the 3rd form of movement, im a pilot myself, and in a 3d space you can also role your ship, up is suddenly down and so forth.Keys can accomdate this very nicely. There is also strafing movement and ascend and descend controls that im sure da will put into the hot keys. Why the hell would you program them into your you stick when you can just hit them on your key board. Im going to try out both, i own a thrustmaster, and if i do use it i would not be busying my right and with anything but hiting the trigger and navigating. My left hand can deal with all the special functions. I didnt make my thread before to upset you, which it clearly did, i just think that it makes more sense to use a mouse than a joystick if you want accuracy
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Natrunner

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19

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 8:43pm

Zog, joysticks in a first person shooter were never a good idea. We all know that. When I played the x-wing series and privateer series, it was never a problem to use a joystick along with hotkeys. I just liked the freedom and satisfaction that I got when I shot that pirate down using my own flying skills and not an autopilot and a mouse. Though I must say that I should slap you silly for playing console games in the first place..........just kidding <img src=smilies/icon_smile.gif width=15 height=15 border=0 align=middle> Edited by - natrunner on 11-08-2002 19:44:25
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20

Sunday, August 11th 2002, 8:55pm

Are we on this again,When it´s obvious everyone will stick to what they´re comfortable &amp; It´s like saying my dad can beat up your dad or my feet are larger than yours.This topic results will always be the same no matter how valid a point you bring up,it won´t change anything.After saying that,I think we should give this topic a rest &amp; just leave it at that.
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